I am currently in a bit of a predicament, that were spurred on by a Judge's comments today, on my last day of marshalling.
I had to do some research for him, although I assumed he would already know the answer, and he had previously said that he had a problem with one pupil who didn't do the research and lied about it etc so I thought I would get it right. Turns out that my research was "excellent". The query at the end of the day was whether I was more inclined more towards academia than advocacy. According to particular Judge I didn't strike him much as an advocate, but was "obviously" a bright lad.
So as I was walking home, I found myself questioning whether or not I would want to at the Bar doing some very dull work in the first few years, that didn't contain much legal theory such as appellate work.
This had all been further confused by Cambridge sending me a letter asking for my final transcript. Of course I assumed that I had already not gotten in, so had asked a well known lecturer if I could do something with him for a year. If i do get into Cambridge which one do I choose between, the well known academic, or the well known university? Furthermore I still have a Middle Temple Scholarship, which I do not know how long I can defer for until I will actually have to give it up.
Minx and others have already suggested that I get something heavy weight under my belt.. hmm damn this scholarship if I didn't have it then I wouldn't feel so constrained to go and do the BVC!
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MT scholarship very much deferable (at least, as far as I know for a year, no idea about any more). Just write to Christa.
Don't know about you, but many of my law fellows I have come across are qualified as barristers too. I wouldn't see it as a choice to make.
If I were you I'd certainly send the transcript off to Cambridge.
As regards the judge's comments, pinch of salt sprang to mind, given that you have already done well mooting; and besides, advocates are like clothes, they come in all different colours, sizes and styles, so there isn't a 'type' anymore (perhaps 20 years ago it was a bit more stereotypical - loud suit and even louder voice).
I presume that you are still quite young? If I were you, I'd probably go for the Cambridge option, simply because it is more versatile. Spending a year doing research for someone could be troublesome if it transpires that you don't really get along together too well. Given that pupillage is very competative, a Cambridge higher degree would give you the edge over other Bar aspirants and you could start applying for non-olpas pupillages whilst you were still studying. Pretty good position to be in Lost, good luck:-)
Thanks Barmaid and Anon, I have already deferred it for this year.
I thought my application for the Mphil Criminology at Cambridge was really unsuccessful rejected from two colleges of my choice, but the board has written to me asking for my transcript.
The problem is I don't think I want to play the waiting game, Cambridge may not get back to me in time that I need to apply for this masters. So it could be a lose lose situation. That and I am pretty much guaranteed entry to this other masters course.
If I do get into Cambridge, it may be too late, in that case I would take it up the next year after the MA in research.
I wish things would just come in a timely order, in order to stop the confusion!!
I'm sorry, but how would that judge know whether you would make a good advocate or not? Did you do a mock trial infront of him? :D
You've done great in mooting, which does demonstrate your potential.
But then... it all depends on what you want to do. Academia is a good back-up option.
The judge did ask how I would cope with being a baby barrister and having to go to the mags etc which deals with a lot of fact, not a substantial lot of law going on there.. which to some extent I agreed.
The judge was very robust and I generally kept my head down unless I was asking questions etc..
I would love to stay in academia for a while actually, one piece of advice from a barrister at the scholarship dinner was "come to the Bar as late as you can".. I still have too much to do!
If you are capable, both intellectually and financially, to stay in academia for another year, or even two years, then definitely go for it. The Bar can wait.
Bar Boy, thanks, thats what I thought, because as soon as I enter the actual profession all of my time will be spent trying to climb the very shaky barristerial ladder, so won't have much time for other learnings!
HI LOST!
I, LIKE YOURSELF HAD BEEN (NOT ANYMORE)STRUGGLING WITH THIS DILEMMA! JUST STEP AWAY FROM THE PICTURE, AND YOU'LL SEE THAT ITS NOT AS DIFFICULT AS YOU MAY THINK! I AM A VERY LOGICAL PERSON(I AM OFTEN TOLD)AND I HOPE MY ADVICE HELPS YOU!
DEFINETLY SEND OFF YOUR TRANSCRIPT TO CANTAB, THE FACT IS ITS NOT WHO YOU HAVE STUDIED WITH EG A CERTAIN PROFESSOR, UNFORTUNETLY, ITS WHERE YOU'VE STUDIED. A QUICK BROWSE THROUGH THE TOP CRIMINAL BARRISTERS CHAMBERS WILL VERIFY THIS- AS IT DOES NOT STATE WHO THEY HAVE STUDIED WITH BUT WHERE. {THE TOP COMMERCIAL IN MY CASE!}
I THINK YOU ARE LOOKING AT ACADEMIA AS A ONE WAY ROAD. THIS IS NOT THE CASE!YOU SHOULD LOOK AT TEACHING AS A STEPPING STONE! WHATEVER YOU DECIDE TO DO, - BE A BARRISTER/ACADEMIC, TEACHING FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE AN ADVANTAGE AND WILL WORK IN YOUR FAVOUR WHATEVER YOUR PROFESSION. YES, I DO THINK YOU SHOULD GO INTO TEACHING (FOR A YEAR OR SO) YOU MIGHT LOVE IT AND MAY STAY ON. IT WILL BECOME MUCH CLEARER ONCE YOU START. BUT IF NOT
YOU CAN GO ON TO DO THE BVC/PUPILLAGE, WITH A GREAT CV AND LOTS OF EXPERIENCE! I THINK THAT ITS ALSO IMPORTANT TO CONSIDER THE FACT THAT TO BE A CRIMINAL BARRISTER YOU NEED AN EDGE, AND I THINK TEACHING WILL DEFINETLY GIVE YOU THAT.
ALSO DON'T BASE YOUR FUTURE ON A SCHOLARSHIP! YES, ITS BLOODY BRILLIANT THAT YOU HAVE IT - BUT ITS FORCING YOU INTO SOMETHING TOO SOON, AND ITS ONLY MONEY YOU CAN ALWAYS EARN/RE-APPLY LATER ON. I JUST THINK YOU MIGHT REGRET IT IF IT DOESN'T WORK IN YOUR FAVOUR AND THEN YOU'LL JUST BE DISCOURAGED!
PLEASE CONSIDER THESE TWO OPTIONS!
OPTION 1-YOU TAKE UP THE SCHOLARSHIP AND DO THE BVC BUT CANT GET PUPILLAGE-THAT WILL HURT VERY MUCH WOULDN'T IT!
OPTION 2-YOU TEACH FOR A YEAR OR SO AND THEN DO THE BVC AND APPLY TO CHAMBERS. WORST COMES TO WORST YOU GET REJECTED (HOWEVER, I DOUBT THIS!) BUT THEN YOU WOULD HAVE YOUR TEACHING TO FALL BACK ON!
WHAT DO YOU THINK? GOOD LUCK(NOT THAT YOU NEED IT!}
KATIE
Hi Katie, do you post off a phone? All your comments seem to be in CAPS, which can be slightly distracting.
Thank you for your insight and its true, I shouldn't feel constrained by the Middle Temple Scholarship.
I do however feel that if I did my MA res with a particular lecturer (I am not going to name names) that it would be quite beneficial for me, either in terms of getting more research to do for that lecturer, and a more than ample reference at the end of it.
If I do get into Cambridge after I have sent my transcript off (which i still haven't received from my university) then I will definitely take it up, just not sure when yet.
My Dear Lost,
You know my thoughts on this matter. You are yet young and the legal world quite frankly is your oyster; consequently, I would urge you to take either the MRes with your lecturer or go to Cambridge before even contemplating the Bar Vocational Course - get that extra crunchy qualification ( plus the stellar reference, if you go with your lecturer!) MAKE your CV leap up off the page and smack chambers in the chops!.
My experiences of pupillage interviews so far is that chambers expect something pretty DAMNED special for their wonga, and the Bar on that one is being raised, it seems, almost hourly, particularly with respect to academic background( where its almost becoming surreal, to be honest) so strenghening yourself on that front will do you no harm whatsoever.
HEY
NO I DONT POST OFF A PHONE, BUT BEING 'DISTRACTING' IS THE IDEA-I JUST LIKE TO STAND OUT!
AND AS FOR YOUR TRANSCRIPT YOUR NOT MEANT TO WAIT FOR IT TO ARRIVE, YOUR MEANT TO GO TO THE FACULTY OFFICE AND GET IT PRINTED OFF! IT WILL BE MUCH QUICKER THAT WAY, HONESTLY!
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF BEING AN ACADEMIC FIRST, AND THEN GOING ON TO DO THE BVC? YOU NEVER KNOW YOU MIGHT LOVE IT!
KATIE
Lost, all I can suggest is that you do what I did. Think about what you enjoy most, and then do it.
I have had the same job for 20 years, and I enjoy it as much now as I did when I started. I have never dreaded a Monday morning, and will happily work through lunch without noticing.
If that means academia for you, then do it and be happy.
The rest of your life is a bloody long time, so enjoy it.
Getting down to more detail, the Judge is not going to employ you. It doesn't matter what he thinks about your abilities really. My Mum thinks I will make a brilliant Barrister, but she hasn't got a pupillage to offer, so I can ignore her.
Having Cambridge on your CV will open doors in the future, whatever you do.
The BVC is good fun if you approach it the right way, but if you look at half of my class you will realise that ANYONE can get on the BVC, and it means nothing.
Not sure that anything I have said helps with anything, but I am losing the powers of thought and concentration nowadays.
Who am I?
Oh, Swizz
Come now Lost, do you mean to say you are deciding your entire future by reference to a judge who has been in your company for approx 5 minutes? If so, then that is silly.
If, as I suspect, you refer to this only to boast about a judge thinking your research was "excellent" and you are "obviously" a bright lad - I would respect you a lot more if you just did a post saying "WOO a judge thought my research was good!!!" rather than attempting (and failing miserably) to be subtle. I say go for academia - your (obviously large) ego would get painfully trampled upon on the route to tenancy.
Anon
If you had followed my blog like others then you would realise that I am interested in doing post-grad study. The comment from a judge just started a thinking trail, that I had been putting off for too long.
Ego? Me? Really?!
Word verification - Toxic - adequately describes something
Oh final anon, if you knew anything about academia, you would know that it is hardly the sort of route that shelters anyone's ego (until they reach the pinnacle at, oh, say, age 50).
Lost, I struggled with this myself (I turned down a funded research path in the end, which I may still live to regret, who knows...) The two paths have always struck me as much of a muchness, coming about equal in terms of life-style hassle. Go with your heart, certainly, but remember to consult the wallet on occasion! ;)
I have been following your blog. I know you have been considering postgrad study. There are many pros and cons to that - a judge who has spent 5 minutes in your company saying you're "obviously" bright and "excellent" would be fairly irrelevant to a decision in this respect by anyone who wasn't overly susceptible to flattery.
Everyone likes a bit of flattery, but you are making the same point that you have already made previously, in that respect I have nothing more to add.
Recorta - I'll try and think about my wallet! Its threadbare as it is at the moment!
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